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Shop hospitality question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7783	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Kelby [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:27 am ]
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I am becoming a victim of my own generosity, and need some ideas from the board. Here's the situation. I build for fun, not profit. I share my interest in guitar-building with friends and family and invite them to come build at my shop, which is well-equipped. Many do --- some to build guitars, some to build other projects. I help them, and I enjoy it. But it is getting out of control. I have been spending more weekends helping others build than I spend on my own builds. Even when I'm working alone in the shop, I put more time into their guitars indirectly than I do into my own. For example, if I am making a couple neck blocks on a Thursday evening, I know it will be quicker for me to run five more now than to help set the jigs up again each time someone comes over to build. Same with making kerfed lining, slotting fretboards, resawing, etc. Frankly, I consider tasks like making lining the darker side of guitar building --- cutting all those stupid slits is menial and tedious. But I spend a lot of time working on those tasks for other people that would otherwise go into my own builds. And then there's shop maintenance. When I go into the shop alone, I spend time dealing with issues left over from other people's builds --- putting things away that got missed during clean-up, sharpening chisels, replacing sanding belts on the thickness sander, etc. On top of everything else, I'm out of space. Too many people's guitars are cluttering up my shop. So two weeks ago, all this is weighing on my mind, and a friend said "I know a guy who wants to build a guitar! When should I bring him by to get started?" I was not as enthusiastic about that prospect as I would have been a couple years ago. Bottom line, I enjoy helping people build and I try to be generous with my time and tools, but I need to establish a new "shop hospitality policy." I'm just not sure what it will be. Here's my working draft: For kin, my shop is your shop. For friends, I'm happy to tell you how to set up an effective workstation in your own home or garage with minimal tools and space, and you can always bring your guitar by with questions or if you need use a tool you don't have. I think this policy would work, but I'm still thinking it through. So what is your shop hospitality policy?

Author:	John How [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:32 am ]
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I live so far out in the boonies that no one comes over. But seriously, you may think about setting the schedule to your needs and reserve time to do your own thing. Maybe set one night a week or something that your friends can work on their guitars and don't advertise. If you let it, it will or maybe has gotten out of hand.John How38929.7315046296

Author:	Rod True [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:36 am ]
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Sounds like you got yourself a guitar building school there. Tony, how much do you charge for lessons? At any rate, what ever you do, people aren't going to like the change, so make sure you get to serve yourself first cause this is your hobby remember. You can't accomodate everyone. Generosity is one thing but when your getting pushed out of your own shop, that's just being to nice. I'm sure you'll think of something, I would atleast charge a rental fee or something, if it's becoming a regular thing with people. If you offer that's one thing, but you will most likly need to change your offers now. I sure hope you at least receive some gratuity for you help and shop use.

Author:	Mark Swanson [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:40 am ]
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John has a good suggestion. Kelby, I was in excatly the same place you are in now. I thought about it, and I finally got the idea to tell everyone to come over on a certain night (it's tuesday ) and everyone can get to know everyone else and I'd set aside that night for them and they would leave me alone the rest of the week! It has worked out real well. Everyone got to know everyone else, and many of the different guys have different skills and offer them to help out the others- each person brings something to the group. After a while I realized that I had actually started a local builders' group! And I have a lot more free time and I don't have to feel like I am letting down my friends.

Author:	John Elshaw [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:42 am ]
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I think you already answered your own question--it's great you're willing to help people out and loan them your equipment, or pay for their costs in building a guitar, but it sounds like to me you just gotta say "no" at some point. I agree, anything goes with family, but outside of that, just being a friend is all they should expect. It's always the generous people that get taken the most advantage of. There is no way I would tell you I have a friend who wants to build, when can he start? I can't even keep my own shop clean and efficient. Guitar building is my hobby--I want to keep it that way. It sounds to me like guitar building is becoming your charity. That's fine, we need more charitable people in this world, but if it's becoming a burden, I think the policy you state above is plenty fair. Cheers! John

Author:	Pwoolson [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:43 am ]
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One of my neighbors wanted to come over and watch me as I built a guitar. I got the impression he wanted to watch the entire process. Well, this particular neighbor is wierd so I told him that my insurance company wouldn't allow anyone else in the shop while I'm working. So I was lucky and nipped that one in the bud.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:44 am ]
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One: Require that each shop visitor that uses the equipment clean up after them self. This means the shop and equipment. Two: when possible require they take their project home with them at the end of every session. Three: don't be bashful of asking that the visitors replenish consumables. If you are going to allow this you must treat it like a wood working school. If there is no charge for the tutelage then all consumables are the responsibility of the user. If is only fair. in fact it is more than fair.

Author:	gratay [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:55 am ]
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i like the one day a week idea.....that will give you more time... what about a one off fee per guitar to cover consummables and tuition....this will probably deter some people which won't be such a bad thing.... and maybe have a cutoff time at the end of the night when everyone helps clean-up.... i would also encourage people to have some of their own tools...things like chisels so you don't have to keep sharpening your own after someone has used them you could extend this to a night where everyone learns some of these skills like blade sharpening cheers

Author:	Arnt Rian [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:55 am ]
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Kelby, I have to tell you, I'd go CRAZY if I had that many people in my shop all the time! I HATE it when someone puts a nick in one of my edge tools, and I have to spend time regrinding it just when I need it and I'm in the middle of something else. Like you, I build for fun, meaning I have a day job and several other commitments and actual shop time is precious, and I could not live with cleaning up after others when I could be building For friends I suggest you follow John's advice and tell them when they can come over (once a week tops), which tools they can use (preferrably their own, absoulutely NOT your chisels!) and where they can leave their stuff. They MUST clean up, pitch in for new band saw blades etc.

Author:	old man [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:14 am ]
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I like the one day a week deal, too. I do know that if I was in this situation, I couldn't stand it for long. If you don't get it under control, to where you are happy with it,, you may end up so frustrated you'll sell the tools and lock the shop. Ron

Author:	burbank [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:21 am ]
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There you have it. For the big-hearted, it's easy to say yes and so hard to say no.

Author:	Serge Poirier [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:27 am ]
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Pat you are so right! Kelby, you gotta learn to say NO! Your real friends will understand that you need your time alone in your shop, abit of independance on your part will make the real friends appreciate you more! Serge

Author:	Jeanne [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:39 am ]
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Lots of great advice here and I agree: Open your shop up one night a week. Break it to them gently, as I'm sure some might be put out. But hey, it's your shop, your time, your stuff. Ergo, your rules. I nearly had the same problems with my stain glass business. I was contracted to rebuild several original windows for a historic church that is in private ownership. I would pull some of the smaller panels and bring them home to my shop. Several curious onlookers would stop by just to see the beauty and watch me work magic. I got so uptight about them touching things I couldn't work. I can't just run out to the local glass company and expect them to match up a 150+ year old piece of glass. I finally put a do not disturb sign on the service door. It worked. I especially like the "CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF" rule, that might just weed out several "students"Jeanne38929.7783217593

Author:	Don Williams [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:49 am ]
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Jeanne, Stained glass work! COOL! I've always wanted to try my hand at that... My wife is really into her cats, and we have two stained glass sun-catchers or whatever you call them, that look exactly like two of our cats. They were custom made for her. Very cool! Congrats on the 1st place at the Scavenger Sail! BTW, I work for US SAILING.... Kelby...you've been given very good advice. I would make them all particpate in shop clean-up and tool maintenance so that they know there's nore than just the fun part. If you do all the work like making end blocks and cleaning and such, they're missing out on the total experience. Let them have it!

Author:	SteveCourtright [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:35 am ]
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Yep, it sounds like you need shop rules and a shop fee for friends and acquaintances. If you use the shop you sign the paper with the rules and pay a fee for each guitar or something. Hate to say it, but maybe the rules will say something about holding you harmless should an accident occur and your expectations about shop times and duties of the signer. Also, if you charge a monthly fee or a time-based fee, people will want to be at your place all the time to maximize their investment, so maybe a one per guitar fee might work better. Or maybe just say NO!

Author:	SteveCourtright [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:37 am ]
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I should also say at my shop, where I make furniture, my friends always find ways to return the favor. I get lots of gift cards for Woodcraft and Borders, not to mention Starbucks. This is because when I was starting out I did the same when I borrowed shop time or tools. So the die was cast early and expectations are to be considerate of the imposition, regardless of how friendly.

Author:	A Peebels [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:52 am ]
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I'm so grouchy that once people get to know me they just don't come back. Al

Author:	Kelby [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:14 am ]
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Thanks everyone! Lots of good ideas here. I suppose I could also consider a more open-door policy that is subject to some rules: * Sunday night is build night. * Bring your own chisels. * Take all your stuff home every night. * Your last 1/2 hour here is cleanup time. * $100 shop fee. I'm done buying the world's blades and sandpaper. * I'll show you how to make your kerfed lining and help you set up the jigs. And while you have the jigs set up anyway, you get to make a few extra sets for me. Consider it your opportunity to give back. * Same goes for neck blocks, tail blocks, binding, and neck blanks. Too much?

Author:	crazymanmichael [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:48 am ]
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kelby, and others, before you do anything, particularly letting anyone else into your shop, much less let them work in it, consult your insurer. it is it is quite probable that you do not have appropriate liability cover for the sort of injury which can occur. remember, this is the sort of liability which can cost you and your family your home. etc. i have a reception area where i meet, greet, smooze and noodle. no one, and i mean no one, enters the operational end of the workshop. the risks are too great and i don't want to pay the extra insurance and have the worry.crazymanmichael38929.8719444444

Author:	Don Williams [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:51 am ]
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Yah....just a little harsh. I would just say "bring your own chisels and supplies like sandpaper, glue, and a saw blade, etc. And also bring some food and soda. I get hungry teaching you folks." Then you can leave another sign on the back of the door "Gratuities graciously accepted for shop services" Then list a bunch of stuff you'd like like tools and such. or reams of sandpaper...

Author:	Jeanne [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:01 pm ]
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[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] kelby, and others, before you do anything, particularly letting anyone else into your shop, much less let them work in it, consult your insurer. it is it is quite probable that you do not have appropriate liability cover for the sort of injury which can occur. remember, this is the sort of liability which can cost you and your family your home. etc. i have a reception area where i meet, greet, smooze and noodle. no one, and i mean no one, enters the operational end of the workshop. the risks are too great and i don't want to pay the extra insurance and have the worry.[/QUOTE] This is very, very good advice Michael! Thanks for the reminder

Author:	Brock Poling [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:07 pm ]
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Or you could order a couple 3,000 lb machines and ask them all to come over and help you move them into your shop, get things wired up, etc. I am sure that will get rid of everyone.

Author:	Don Williams [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:07 pm ]
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Umm....yeah....insurance liability. I knew there was something sticking in my brain. Unless you have the insurance, you're really at risk for a law suit. You might want to have the people also sign liability releases too. Get that draw up by a lawyer... Do we have any lawyers on the OLF???

Author:	Michael McBroom [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:08 pm ]
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I was about to write basically what crazyman wrote for all the same reasons. Given the reality of the litigious society we live in, I'd make each person who used my shop sign a waiver of liability. I cut a finger with a very sharp chisel a couple of years ago, and drove myself down to the emergency room. Turns out the cut, while deep, was so clean that I didn't need stitches, but a tetanus shot and a 10-minute talk with the doctor resulted in a bill of over $800. I kid you not. Glad my insurance covered most of it. Best, Michael

Author:	Don A [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:28 pm ]
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I agree, be sure that you are insured in case there is an accident (ah, no one ever gets hurt...right BobC, MichaelP, etc, etc.) It might even be more complex if you charge them a fee as it might be construed as a business. Other than that, just be up front with them. If they are really your friends, they will understand your time, tool and expense woes and pitch in to help you out accordingly. It is great that you are helping friends, now let them repay the favor.

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